Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund targeting one billion euros to save the climate

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
Eric DUPONT
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by Eric DUPONT » 27/11/20, 08:10

The problem is rather that time sets out to help inventors, and provide them with what it takes to develop and produce their idea, but that the company to create is predominantly owned by time after the acquisition of the, patents and allegange of the creator to poverty.

I believe edf is doing better with pulse https://www.edf.fr/pulse
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by Christophe » 27/11/20, 10:32

izentrop wrote:
Christophe wrote:it is specialized in the sector of activities of holding companies
I don't see a problem, it's just management facilities, right? https://www.village-justice.com/article ... 32385.html



The problem is that the goal of a company, and all the more so a financial holding company, is above all to make money ...

I fear that the "green" argument is a big greenwashing more ...

If I'm wrong, they are doing applied econology! If so, so much the better!

But when I see that the share capital is over 600 k € ... well, I have some doubts ...
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by Christophe » 27/11/20, 10:36

Eric Dupont wrote:The problem is rather that time sets out to help inventors, and provide them with what it takes to develop and produce their idea, but that the company to create is predominantly owned by time after the acquisition of the, patents and allegange of the creator to poverty.

I believe edf is doing better with pulse https://www.edf.fr/pulse


Here !! Here !! It is exactly what I think !!

There is already a private innovation support network in France, called the incubators, regional innovation assistance agencies and especially the BPI!

So allow me to express some doubts about philanthropy and good for the planet of this company of Holding...

This company proclaims itself a citizen fund ... is the Stock Exchange a citizen fund?
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by ENERC » 27/11/20, 14:10

ABC2019 wrote:
Eric Dupont wrote:yes I have calculations and according to the theoretical thermodynamic calculations we spend almost as much energy to produce liquid nitrogen as we recover in the opposite direction. like 98%, of memory it takes 260 w to produce 1 kg of liquid nitrogen and we recover in theory 254 wh / kg. ... it is a conversion efficiency.

the problem is not the theoretical yield, the problem is the practical yield of the process you propose to use. Real machines have much lower yields than theoretical yields.

It is even at the level of theoretical efficiency that the problem arises. On a Linde cycle, here is the conversion rate into liquid nitrogen at 7 ° C:
linde1.png
linde1.png (30.05 KiB) Viewed 2824 times


5% at 150 bars. And so the 95% go back to the compressor ...

The theoretical calculation gives:
linde-2.png
linde-2.png (27.05 KiB) Viewed 2824 times


We are very far from the theoretical 98% .... The calculations are available here: http://biblio.univ-annaba.dz/ingeniorat ... Cherif.pdf
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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by Eric DUPONT » 27/11/20, 15:13

The 5% that you quote of the cycle of India corresponds to the nitrogen which liquefies during the relaxation and in no case the overall yield. in the india cycle, from memory we obtain at best 1 kg of liquid nitrogen per kWh. if you look at the patent there is no question of the linde cycle, nor of claude for that matter. the claude cycle being more efficient: 325 Wh to produce one kilogram of liquid nitrogen. Namely that the claude cycle is at the origin of Air Liquide.

the minimum energy to produce 1 kg of liquid nitrogen is the reverse of what it takes to restore 1 kg of liquid nitrogen at room temperature and pressure. of memory, about 250 wh per kilo. you take 1 kilo of liquid nitrogen you add 250 wh you to gaseous nitrogen at room temperature.
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ABC2019
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by ABC2019 » 27/11/20, 15:27

Eric Dupont wrote:the minimum energy to produce 1 kg of liquid nitrogen is the reverse of what it takes to restore 1 kg of liquid nitrogen at ambient temperature and pressure.

well no precisely if you have a bad performance ... finally the problem is that you can lose a lot of work in heat dissipated in the environment.
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by Eric DUPONT » 27/11/20, 15:50

conversely in energy return there is a lot of heat taken from the environment ... at least as much as in production.
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by ENERC » 27/11/20, 15:58

ABC2019 wrote:
Eric Dupont wrote:the minimum energy to produce 1 kg of liquid nitrogen is the reverse of what it takes to restore 1 kg of liquid nitrogen at ambient temperature and pressure.

well no precisely if you have a bad performance ... finally the problem is that you can lose a lot of work in heat dissipated in the environment.

I found the document of Jean-Renaud BRUGEROLLE - Former Student of the Ecole Polytechnique. Development Engineer in the Engineering Division
of the company L'AIR LIQUIDE. :D
It clearly indicates a theoretical efficiency of 0,265 kWh per Nm3.
However (and this is an Air Liquide guy writing this):
The current trend is to do away with high pressure cycles in favor of medium pressure cycles although the latter have a slightly lower efficiency. This is for technological reasons: indeed, up to pressures of 45 bars, it is possible to use rotary machines (both for compression and for expansion) and to keep plate heat exchangers much less expensive than high-pressure wound heat exchangers.
Under these conditions, the cycle rate is approximately eight times the liquefied rate. The specific consumption of a liquefier is of the order of
0,67 kWh / liter or 0,95 kWh / Nm3 of liquid nitrogen

The overall efficiency of the cycle is therefore 28%. (Ratio of theoretical liquefaction energy to total energy actually expended.)

The main advantage of this process is its simplicity and reliability. Only the gas to be liquefied enters into the composition of the cycle which comprises very few elements. On the other hand, it has the serious defect of treating a very large gas flow, which, added to the fact that the gases have low transfer coefficients, requires the use of large exchange surfaces because of the small temperature differences used. .
The use of plate heat exchangers makes it possible to remedy this defect because they have very large specific exchange surfaces.
The largest current units approach the powers of ten megawatt.


Air Liquide therefore had a yield of 28% in 1972. The article is 1972, but it would surprise me that that has changed a lot.
https://www.persee.fr/doc/jhydr_0000-00 ... _12_2_4341

Edit: since we must pass 8 times in the compressor, with an output of 85 we fall exactly on 0,28 (0.85 ^ 8).
And with an efficiency of 95% (not easy to build), we would be at 66%
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Eric DUPONT
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by Eric DUPONT » 27/11/20, 16:07

Eric Dupont wrote:yes I have calculations and according to the theoretical thermodynamic calculations we spend almost as much energy to produce liquid nitrogen as we recover in the opposite direction. like 98%, of memory it takes 260 w to produce 1 kg of liquid nitrogen and we recover in theory 254 wh / kg. ... it is a conversion efficiency.


you see that my theoretical calculation concerning the energy necessary to produce 1 kg of nitrogen eliquid is good ... like the rest too.
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Re: Time for the Planet, the new citizens' fund which targets the billion euros to save the climate




by ENERC » 27/11/20, 16:33

Eric Dupont wrote:
Eric Dupont wrote:yes I have calculations and according to the theoretical thermodynamic calculations we spend almost as much energy to produce liquid nitrogen as we recover in the opposite direction. like 98%, of memory it takes 260 w to produce 1 kg of liquid nitrogen and we recover in theory 254 wh / kg. ... it is a conversion efficiency.


you see that my theoretical calculation concerning the energy necessary to produce 1 kg of nitrogen eliquid is good ... like the rest too.

I did not say the contrary. But as you can see from the isenthalpic diagram:
Image

You cannot liquefy if the temperature at the entrance of the isenthalpic expansion is greater than -150 ° C. this has two consequences:
- you have to recover the mechanical work of the trigger
- to recover it from the compressor.

But since you have to make several passes in the compressor (Air Liquide says 8 to lower the temperature before expansion below -150 ° C), you accumulate the expansion and compression outputs several times.
This explains why the real return is far from the theoretical return.
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