Degrowth by Timothée Parrique

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
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Re: Degrowth by Timothée Parrique




by Ahmed » 18/07/21, 13:20

You make us furious mixes, Grelinette! One of the heartwarming things people love to hear on TV is that "the next world will not be the same" and that's the heart of the media's work ...
Then, to conclude that there is a human essence carried towards navel-gazing is to reverse the cause and the consequences: yes, this current world, as it has been shaped, can hardly function otherwise. Cold and calculating "reason" spares the "heart" only the minimum place allowing the former to express itself without collapsing under the weight of its own negativity.
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Re: Degrowth by Timothée Parrique




by Grelinette » 18/07/21, 15:00

Ahmed wrote:You make us furious mixes, Grelinette! One of the heartwarming things people love to hear on TV is that "the next world will not be the same" and that's the heart of the media's work ...

Certainly that reassures people, but I think those who made these statements were to some extent sincere and not always calculated cynicism.
It seems credible to me that those (the powerful and rulers of this world) who maintained that "the next world had to change"reassured themselves also in a sort of awareness of being an active link and responsible for the fragile system and this decadence, a link which could be affected, like all vulgum-pecus, by this disturbing virus that has arrived of which we do not know how or from where and who can strike anyone without even having previously checked whether the victim's bank account was preserving it!

Certainly also, under the influence of a strong emotion, and the beginning of the pandemic was one, human nature lets itself go to express uncontrolled resurgent emotions to then change its mind in a reflection of the type "... finally, what "Do I risk myself personally? Less than the others? Ok! so let's not change anything and remain discreet and continue to raise our arms to the sky to give the change".

Then, to conclude that there is a human essence carried towards navel-gazing is to reverse the cause and the consequences.

We are playing "Who from the Chicken or the Egg started?", Because to say that "this current world, as it has been shaped, can hardly function otherwise", it is also to say that the man by his addictions and behaviors fundamentally navel and unconscious could not construct anything else to satisfy his greed (voracity) individualistic and insatiable.

To give you an image of spinal as naive as it speaks, I will show you the American Indians who hunted bison to take only what they needed, while the newly arrived cowboys exterminated them in a few years. (the bison ... and the Indians too, for that matter, with one stone two birds!) only to satisfy individual pleasures. To a certain extent we are still witnessing the same phenomenon today with the destruction of the Amazonian forests which destroy at the same time endemic indigenous peoples to satisfy the greed of a few leaders of multinationals.
(The question that naturally comes to mind is: "Why do some humans know how to moderate themselves, to reason with themselves, while others are bulimic and unreasonable?).

Cold and calculating "reason" spares the "heart" only the minimum place allowing the former to express itself without collapsing under the weight of its own negativity.

I do not understand the meaning of your sentence! What you say, Ahmed, seems to me to imply that there is beforehand a conscious intellectual reflection (Reason) to satisfy at least his interior and individual envy up to a destructive limit, therefore to brush against the precepts of the Heart. In reality, Reason being neither a driving force nor an adviser, there is a commission of acts that are known to be deleterious for others, for society, for humanity, and consequently, we cannot hide, for oneself, therefore ultimately self-destructive.

My questioning goes beyond: is there not an irrepressible reflex mechanism written in his brain (hello again the Triatum!) Which pushes man into a headlong rush of gluttony and into a "Whatever? costs "(again from the national Manu in the text!).
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Re: Degrowth by Timothée Parrique




by Petrus » 18/07/21, 19:03

I think that this situation is explained (at least in part) by the fact that the less scrupulous people (see downright sociopaths) are propelled to positions of responsibility where they can fully exercise their power of nuisance. In a healthy system these people would be limited to functions where they could not do damage, thus regulating the nuisances, there it is the opposite and the system races towards its self-destruction.
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Re: Degrowth by Timothée Parrique




by ENERC » 18/07/21, 20:05

Petrus wrote:I think that this situation is explained (at least in part) by the fact that the less scrupulous people (see downright sociopaths) are propelled to positions of responsibility where they can fully exercise their power of nuisance. In a healthy system these people would be limited to functions where they could not do damage, thus regulating the nuisances, there it is the opposite and the system races towards its self-destruction.

I am not quite of that opinion. I think people are still "formatted" by their education and experience. We even have some perfect examples on this forum. :D

Take, for example, how many policies in the broad sense have anything to do with agro-forestry, permaculture or even more simply with organic? When you listen to them, they stuck to the agricultural policy of the 60s that shaped teachers until recently.
They would surely be less stupid if they read the did67 thread on the sloth's vegetable garden. : Cheesy:
The consequence is that they follow like sheep the policy dictated by the FNSEA or by Europe.

On the issue of GDP, Timothée Parrique sees it right by questioning the method of calculating GDP and refocusing on well-being. But as he says almost everyone has software from the 30s (1930s : Mrgreen: ).

I was quite surprised to see how the members of the citizens' convention on the climate who started from almost zero knowledge quickly reached a sufficient maturity on these ecological questions.
Politicians should go to training regularly. They are mostly literary and the world is more and more technical. It is not because they are literary that they will never understand, but they need training adapted to their course.

For senior managers, the problem is different since they are set up by lobbies (finance / industry). After the "people" vote badly because they understand nothing at all and they are poisoned with propaganda.
Sending all the "people" for training seems difficult to me, but it can go through the municipal or associative level.

I really liked this intervention by Thimothée which has the merit of questioning what we take for granted.
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Re: Degrowth by Timothée Parrique




by Grelinette » 22/07/21, 15:55

ENERC wrote:
Petrus wrote:..
On the issue of GDP, Timothée Parrique sees it right by questioning the method of calculating GDP and refocusing on well-being. But as he says almost everyone has software from the 30s (1930s : Mrgreen: ) ....

Voices have been heard for a long time to say that GDP is only a very partial indicator based solely on quantitative growth, ignoring any qualitative dimension, and is not representative of the good health of an economy.
GDP gives flawed conclusions; for example, we say that the disaster of an oil spill boosts GDP!

In March 1968, Robert Kennedy, candidate for the Democratic nomination for the American presidential election, already hammered it:
“The GDP does not take into account the health of our children, the quality of their education, nor the cheerfulness of their games. He does not measure the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages. He does not think of evaluating the quality of our political debates or the integrity of our representatives. It does not take into consideration our courage, our wisdom or our culture. (…) In short, GDP measures everything except what makes life worth living. "

Curiously, no one wants (or dares) to go back on the calculation of GDP ...

(https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/publi ... nts/a54102)

Take, for example, how many policies in the broad sense have anything to do with agro-forestry, permaculture or even more simply with organic?

Politicians are a species of beings for whom it is difficult to understand behavior. They are, however, "brilliant" people in the sense that they have placed themselves at the top of our societies, generally having made brilliant studies. We cannot therefore say that they are not in a position to know or understand a subject; if they don't, there is something special about them.

Undoubtedly an extraordinary egocentrism, an exacerbated ego, an insatiable addiction to power which pushes them to refuse the obvious and commit deleterious acts for the community that they are nevertheless supposed to "protect". In short, a number of politicians are persuaded to do GOOD (first of all to themselves!) Whereas today many of us think that their behavior produces EVIL in others ..., but hey, them, them. politicians, are convinced of the contrary!
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Re: Degrowth by Timothée Parrique




by Grelinette » 22/07/21, 16:31

The results given by the GDP calculation remind me of this saying:
A statistician who has his head in a lit oven and his feet in a block of ice will conclude: in the end, the average temperature is quite bearable and even comfortable! : Cheesy:
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