Political choices to create and maintain unemployment

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by sen-no-sen » 30/08/21, 17:25

Janic wrote:
Particular vision of determinism!
This is not an exact science because there are too many unknown parameters, which does not allow or support the fact of an absolute determinism, any more than of a relative determinism.


Absolute determinism is difficult to defend (What could well be absolute, if not the absolute itself?), On the other hand it is clear that determinism is a serious thing, without which we would have some "small" problems.

We then find ourselves only on the philosophical level, therefore in the most absolute subjectivity.

I don't think the laws of physics are subjectivity ... so try jumping out the window or putting your hand on a hot hob, you will quickly grasp the notion. : Mrgreen:

Either things are written in advance and we just accomplish them like bees are conditioned to forage and make honey.

The conditioning does not imply fatality either.If we join the fatalists we should deliver all the detainees from the detention centers, because the crimes committed by his last could only be attributed to a fatality ... everything would be writes "somewhere".
Ditto for the tobacco industry or the junk food not responsible for thousands of deaths from cardiopulmonary disease.
This interpretation would suit more than one!

Either, we believe that the world, the universe depends on our decisions and unfortunately we perceive the effects!

If necessary, we would have to find an area in our brain where decisions would appear ex nihilo...
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by humus » 30/08/21, 17:49

sen-no-sen wrote:I don't think the laws of physics are subjectivity ... so try jumping out the window or putting your hand on a hot hob, you will quickly grasp the notion. : Mrgreen:

This is why talking about determinism for everything that concerns humans bothers me a lot, given that everything that concerns the human sphere is the result of conscious and unconscious decisions on our part.
Decisions that can be called into question at any time.
Are we going to have to invent floating determinism? : Lol:
The word loses its relevance.

In our time in search of solutions, the word determinism locks the mind in useless prisons, there are enough of them like that.
In order to be constructive, it would be better to evoke the field of possibilities.
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by sen-no-sen » 30/08/21, 18:00

humus wrote:In our time in search of solutions, the word determinism locks the mind in useless prisons, there are enough of them like that.
In order to be constructive, it would be better to evoke the field of possibilities.


The notion of determinism is not at all incompatible with the idea of ​​potential. In view of the multitude of possible interactions in our universe, the field remains very very wide!
Evading the notion of determinism remains however very dangerous (in addition to being stupid), because that would lock us, this time, in the jails of illusion ...
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by Janic » 30/08/21, 18:48

sen-no-sen »30 / 08 / 21, 17: 25
Janic wrote:
Particular vision of determinism!
This is not an exact science because there are too many unknown parameters, which does not allow or support the fact of an absolute determinism, any more than of a relative determinism.
Absolute determinism is difficult to defend (What could possibly be absolute, if not the absolute itself?),
Ah, ah! The notion of the absolute is only a form of language widely used without reference to the absolute absolute!
on the other hand it is clear that determinism is a serious thing, otherwise we would have some "small" problems.
For example ?
We then find ourselves only on the philosophical level, therefore in the most absolute subjectivity.
I don't think the laws of physics are subjectivity ... so try jumping out the window or putting your hand on a hot hob, you will quickly grasp the notion.
I would have a physiological sensation which will not tell me if it is due to chance, or if it is part of a predetermined set.
Either things are written in advance and we just accomplish them like bees are conditioned to forage and make honey.
Conditioning does not imply inevitability either.
We must not confuse two aspects linked or not to determinism itself. Of course, the bee is and will remain a bee and will not turn into an elephant because it wants to, so it makes honey!
If we join the fatalists we should deliver all the detainees from the detention centers, because the crimes committed by his last could only be attributed to a fatality ...everything would be written "somewhere"
exactly, you understood correctly!
Ditto for the tobacco industry or junk food not responsible for thousands of deaths from cardio pulmonary diseases.
This interpretation would suit more than one!
It is only an affective analysis on the notion of good or bad, it is our ego which is expressed. A part of humanity kills animals that have done them no harm and we do not lock them up as criminals, so it is only a rule that humans give themselves with their advantages and disadvantages , which does not give any info on the determinism or not of the events and acts that each one lives and assumes (good or bad) We have already largely seen these aspects together.
Ditto for the tobacco industry or junk food not responsible for thousands of deaths from cardio pulmonary diseases.
This interpretation would suit more than one!
Indeed, it is in human nature to be self-righteous, even if it does not depend on a conscious choice!
Either we believe that the world, the universe depends on our decisions and unfortunately we are seeing the effects!
If necessary, we would have to find an area in our brain where decisions would appear ex nihilo
Indeed this raises the question of any appearance ex nihilo as of evolution, biologically unprovable.
The notion of determinism is not at all incompatible with the idea of ​​potential. In view of the multitude of possible interactions in our universe, the field remains very very wide!
Or on the contrary extremely narrow! these possible interactions in an "absolute" determinism have no place, any more than the planets which revolve around the sun have no possibility without unbalancing the fragile stellar ecosystem.
Evading the notion of determinism remains however very dangerous (in addition to being stupid), because this would lock us, this time, in the jails of illusion ...
There you have it, that's the key to the subject! are we not, precisely, in this illusion by believing to be able to change the course of the things, only way of believing to be something other than an instrument like all those that we, the humans, create.
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by humus » 31/08/21, 08:04

sen-no-sen wrote:The notion of determinism is not at all incompatible with the idea of ​​potential.

In absolute terms, indeed.
Worry is the word and concept behind it, which insidiously leads to fatalism, which instead kills the idea of ​​potential.

We can speak of a chain of cause and effect by describing them, without using the word determinism.
The description of the chain of cause and effect allows everyone to understand the process in play, which precisely gives the power to whoever learns to extract himself from it.
We act better on what we understand.
The word determinism about a subject, without further details, explains nothing and above all unconsciously locks up in the named process, making it perceive as inevitable.
inevitable as nothing changes while as far as humans are concerned everything can change.

sen-no-sen wrote:Evading the notion of determinism remains however very dangerous (in addition to being stupid)

Nothing prevents describing the chain of cause and effect in relative detail, which is a source of understanding, a source of power and action.

sen-no-sen wrote:because that would lock us, this time, in the jails of illusion ...

I do not see where I would have praised the illusion, on the contrary I am for enlightened emancipation.

I could talk about car traffic saying that their movements are always uniformly accelerated.
which gives the impression that cars are spending their time accelerating.
when they are at a steady speed or at a standstill, say that they are uniformly accelerated with an acceleration equal to zero.
In absolute terms, it is true but I do not find it relevant at the level of communication.
well the word determinism is the same. : Wink:
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by Janic » 31/08/21, 09:36

humus »31/08/21, 08:04
We can speak of a chain of cause and effect by describing them, without using the word determinism.
It does not matter which words one uses insofar as they cover the same concept, except that often using a synonym, if any, diminishes or devalues ​​the initial meaning!
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/determinisme
PHILOS. Doctrine according to which the actions of men are, like the phenomena of nature, subject to a set of external causes.
It is the physical dimension, material only.
SCOLAST. Doctrine which subordinates the human will to divine Providence and therefore denies free will (cf. predestination):
This is the metaphysical dimension,
Two aspects as important as each other, beyond philosophies or beliefs. For one is attached to the past, cause effect; the other in the future that cannot be described by our usual means.
The description of the chain of cause and effect allows everyone to understand the process involved, WHAT JUST GIVES THE POWER it is up to the one who takes cognizance of it to extract himself from it.
Illusion of the mind! We can only imagine in the realm of possibilities that we already know, not beyond and in general the future never corresponds to what we believe it could be. This is the vanity of the human mind!
We act better on what we understand.
This is what we have learned to believe, but the reality is quite different as we can see with the covid episode where everyone is agitated to face what no one has mastered, such as firefighters in the face of a forest fire, which will only actually stop when everything that can be burned has already been burnt. Vanity of vanities!
However, it is in human nature to believe that all this turmoil is going to control what goes far beyond our ability to steer the course of events, that's what we are here for!
The word determinism about a subject, without further details, explains nothing and above all unconsciously locks up in the named process, making it perceive as inevitable.
inevitable as nothing changes while as far as humans are concerned everything can change.
The characteristic of determinism is precisely this inevitability, like the planets which revolve around the sun in a determined way and in an "ineluctable" cycle because no planet can change anything there, they revolve, revolve and will revolve indefinitely, because it 'is their role as for everything that moves, including us of course.
so much nothing changes whereas with regard to the human being everything can change.
Another illusion of the mind! what has humans changed on this earth (if not by destroying life, according to the principle of entropy.) Humans are born and die like all the rest of life, they eat, they shit, they fucks and occupies the rest of his life in a shitty job while waiting for a retirement where he will get bored at a hundred cents an hour while waiting to die like elsewhere and he does not master this aspect any more than the rest
Nothing prevents from describing the chain of causes and effects in relative detail, which is a source of understanding, SOURCE OF POWER [*]and action.
Always the ego which expresses itself precisely from this illusion of possessing a POWER whatever is more and more concretized in transhumanism, the human having become superior has god in his works.
I do not see where I would have praised the illusion, on the contrary I am for enlightened emancipation.
As ?

[*] a power which can very little, if not nothing at all!
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by humus » 31/08/21, 16:16

Janic wrote:humus »31/08/21, 08:04
We can speak of a chain of cause and effect by describing them, without using the word determinism.
It doesn't matter what words you use as long as they cover the same concept,

Precisely no, no matter what, the word determinism, by its inevitability, locks the mind into fatalism by obliterating the potentials which in the absolute are always present, but the mind no longer sees them.
Somewhere the word determinism locks in the prison of impotence.
The word "power" is only the counterpoint to this powerlessness.

When we understand that the GHGs released at the current rate will create nuisances worse than the current benefits, we find ourselves with the power to say: "we continue or we change paths."
If we were not informed of the RCA, we would be in the most total determinism and therefore without the power of change.

No need to go into a spin on the links between ego and power.
Like what words do have an unconscious meaning (a power), given what the word "power" causes in you.
therefore not regardless of the choice of vocabulary.
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by Exnihiloest » 31/08/21, 16:53

humus wrote:...
Precisely no, no matter what, the word determinism, by its inevitability, locks the mind into fatalism by obliterating the potentials which in the absolute are always present, but the mind no longer sees them.
Somewhere the word determinism locks in the prison of impotence.
The word "power" is only the counterpoint to this powerlessness.


I tend to agree, but the existence of determinism is not a choice.

In science, only quantum mechanics leaves a very small door open to non-determinism in the so-called Copenhagen interpretation. But since at least two other interpretations are deterministic (Cramer's transactional interpretation and Everett's multi-universe theory) and also perfectly compatible with the QM formalism, nothing is played. And in the Copenhagen interpretation, chance plays a role, so if there was ever non-determinism, it wouldn't guarantee our free will.

So we don't know if the world is deterministic or not, but if we don't want to kill ourselves right away because what would happen to us would be inevitable, we have to act "as if" it wasn't.

When we understand that the GHGs released at the current rate will create nuisances worse than the current benefits, we find ourselves with the power to say: "we continue or we change paths."
...

We misunderstood.
When we understand, man can calmly continue his march towards progress as he has always done since the beginning of humanity. It is not made to vegetate in the sustainable, terrorized by the fear of the future distilled by an ecologism beyond all science.
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by sen-no-sen » 31/08/21, 17:07

And in the Copenhagen interpretation, chance plays a role, so if there was ever non-determinism, that would not guarantee our free will, however.


Free will is a concept to be dusted off and should be replaced by the notion of "degree of free will", in the same way as intelligence or consciousness.
To say that a rabbit is endowed with intelligence is one thing, but that does not tell us about its level of intelligence, hence the notion of degree.

To stay in the subject John Conway et Simon kochen we developed a fairly relevant free will theorem:
http://www.lifl.fr/~jdelahay/dnalor/LibreArbitre.pdf(For Science article).
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Re: Political choices to create and maintain unemployment




by Janic » 31/08/21, 17:40

Janic
No matter what words we use insofar as they cover the same concept,
Precisely no, no matter what, the word determinism, by its inevitability, locks the mind into fatalism by obliterating the potentials which in the absolute are always present, but the mind no longer sees them.
Or more precisely (another option) the human spirit, by culture, does not like this notion of inevitability because it is precisely opposed to its desire " to be there for something Which is only a manifestation, understandable, of the ego!
Somewhere the word determinism locks in the prison of impotence.

Or it frees on the contrary by noting that all his efforts to change the course of things are in vain
exmachin also expresses it in this sentence: "So we don't know if the world is deterministic or not, but if we don't want to kill ourselves right away because what would happen to us would be inevitable, we have to act 'as if' it wasn't. "
exactly, we are reduced to pretending!
The word "power" is only the counterpoint to this powerlessness.
When we understand that the GHGs released at the current rate will create nuisances worse than the current benefits, we find ourselves with the power to say: "we continue or we change paths."

Sure ! This leaves hope for humans who need it (me too) to avoid the depression that would lead to suicide for example, as with this covid. The question then remains: " am I making the right decision and according to what criteria "Ecologists", anxious to solve problems that they, humans, had initiated in agriculture, and therefore by their way of life, we reintroduce species from foreign countries with different conditions and this has given rise to ecological disasters which then complain the farmers, hunters, fishermen, ecologists themselves and the rest of the population. It is not enough to want to do something, but this must not turn against this initiative.
If we were not informed of the RCA, we would be in the most total determinism and therefore without the power of change.
But we will not change anything, or at the margin, that is to say almost nothing. Climate change due to human activity started with the industrial age which we all, the haves are happily enjoying, and before we seriously start to change things, this change will already be permanently installed (for our limited time of To be human)
No need to go into a spin on the links between ego and power.
Like what words do have an unconscious meaning (a power), given what the word "power" causes in you.
therefore not regardless of the choice of vocabulary.
The word power I take it by its root which is the ability to make or break, not just the pride of dominating, even if it is underlying the first!
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/pouvoir
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