Is making durable is incompatible with growth?

Current Economy and Sustainable Development-compatible? GDP growth (at all costs), economic development, inflation ... How concillier the current economy with the environment and sustainable development.
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Obamot
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Is making durable is incompatible with growth?




by Obamot » 28/11/12, 17:22

Subject divided since: https://www.econologie.com/forums/l-obsolesc ... t9854.html

Gaston wrote:
chatelot16 wrote:
Christophe wrote:Short interview with Serge Latouche about planned obsolescence:

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/1044084 ... -consommer

INTERVIEW - Economist and author of “Bon pour la casse” (ed. The links that free), Serge Latouche lists through the menu the different ways to fight against planned obsolescence ...

At its level, what can the consumer do?

Stop consuming!


the answer is almost there: when there are only bad products the consumer cannot choose the good ... he can only delay his purchases as much as possible ... make the old equipment last as long as possible, to make it clear that if they want to sell they will have to do better!
It is therefore sufficient that manufacturers "hold" long enough for the consumer, having delayed as much as possible, finally buys one of the products, even if he is aware that it is bad. : Evil:

On the other hand, since this system works on my head, I ask myself the following question (which could be the subject of a separate thread):

- "Does making durable / strong reliable and repairable lead to bankruptcy?
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by Flytox » 28/11/12, 19:07

Obamot wrote:On the other hand, since this system works on my head, I ask myself the following question (which could be the subject of a separate thread):

- "Does making durable / strong reliable and repairable lead to bankruptcy?


Since the whole system is made to waste, it is difficult to change the rules of the game without making a maximum of unemployed .... There will be an intermediary way while waiting to reform the whole.

This will be to distribute what we buy between 2 types of product according to 2 very distinct standards (and not written by some lobbies and other crapulolitics).

- The first type includes all the current stews made just to get to the end of the warranty.

- The second type could be reserved for products designed and produced to last.

The first type of premium rate (very much increased type of VAT) and the second type of minimum VAT.

This should allow "virtuous" companies to survive.
-Over time these VAT rates could be changed to accompany the change in the industry (or what is left of it)
: Mrgreen: ) towards even more "sustainability".
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by chatelot16 » 28/11/12, 19:27

fully agree !

reduced vat for all durable material: when the manufacturer provides the right documentation ... that he supplies the spare parts at a reasonable price, and that an inspection body verifies that there is no trap to con

and for manufacturers who hide behind manufacturing secrets so as not to give the essential documentation to repair, heavy vat for luxury product

and I'm not in the shade ... why 5% and 19,6? as much to go frankly 0% for what is good 30% for what is bad

who should verify the quality of the repairable durable material? simply technical education: each time a manufacturer distributes the right documentation and the technical teachers concerned are happy with it VAT = 0%

disseminating good technical information does not only allow the repair, it also allows students not to learn in a vacuum only with imaginary exercise but to learn the current technique well to be able to participate in the following progress

a big difference in VAT between good and bad manufacturers would be a good way to move in the right direction

we are on the edge of the abyss we must take a big step forward
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by Gaston » 29/11/12, 10:05

chatelot16 wrote:and I'm not in the shade ... why 5% and 19,6? as much to go frankly 0% for what is good 30% for what is bad
It will never go to the EU or the WTO : Evil:

We put our finger in a gear from which we will only get out if the gear breaks :frown:
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by Ahmed » 29/11/12, 12:43

Flytox, you write:
Since the whole system is made to waste, it is difficult to change the rules of the game without making a maximum of unemployed ....

If the goal of the economy as a whole, and not only in one or another aspect, were virtuous, its purpose would be to produce the maximum unemployment possible because to free oneself from the constraints of work would be a great progress.
In the current system, however entirely turned towards waste, there is also a clear (albeit not explicit) design to create as much unemployment as possible, or, if you prefer, to decrease employment to the most congruent compatible with the continuation of this waste.
The difference, and it is significant, is that unemployment is a social calamity assessed in terms of our operating criteria.
This is the reason why many people are paid dearly to drastically reduce employment while at the level of official discourse, and as a counterweight, it is only a question of "safeguarding" and "creation. employment ".


Chatelot16, you write slightly:
We are on the brink of the abyss, we must take a big step forward.

You make me dizzy! :D

"Does manufacturing durable / strong reliable and repairable lead to bankruptcy"?

Good question! However, it only arises through a methodological bias which supposes two possible approaches to production, when, necessarily, what must be taken into account is the interference between these two paths.
In the current context, the production of "general public" goods meeting these criteria should display prohibitive prices in order to be profitable.
There are only two areas where this price would be acceptable: that of industrial production machines (which is therefore not "general public"), or that of luxury which more or less contains these criteria but does not constitute any. the main goal.

This way of formulating the question further postulates that bankruptcy is a negative outcome and should therefore be avoided.
However, should not a particularly efficient industry, by its very efficiency, cause its disappearance?
There is a contradiction between an industry producing enduring goods indefinitely ...

On all these questions, the reasoning is vitiated bybeforehand which express our difficulty in abstracting ourselves from ambient economism.
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by Janic » 29/11/12, 13:18

However, should not a particularly efficient industry, by its very efficiency, cause its disappearance?
There is a contradiction between an industry producing enduring goods indefinitely ...

not really! as long as the market is not saturated and as the world population increases, it is not for now. In addition with maximum efficiency, we would still be driving in Ford T and with a galena station.
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by Ahmed » 29/11/12, 13:34

As long as a definition of "need" is not provided, it is only a very elastic abstraction ...

In addition, with maximum efficiency, we would still be driving a Ford T ...

Precisely, the Ford T has only known the distribution that we know thanks to the dismantling of the regular and numerous lines which pre-existed it and which constituted a higher efficiency.
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by chatelot16 » 29/11/12, 14:18

when a manufacturer has almost a monopoly he can sell more often, making it less sustainable

when there is real competition, a manufacturer who makes shit does not sell anything anymore

it is a little what happened with peugeot: at the time of the 504 they sold some to the whole world ... the african used them more than 20 years but were ready to buy others

since then they started making less durable cars: and the French continued to buy them because we like French cars ... but the rest of the world does not want any more: they find it more solid at other brand

in africa they know better than with us the solid models ... when we buy a good model, we sell it a few years later almost at the same price ... if we buy a peugeot, it's unsaleable
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by Ahmed » 29/11/12, 18:39

When there is real competition, a manufacturer who makes shit does not sell anything any more.

So there is no real competition on many products ...
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by chatelot16 » 29/11/12, 19:44

long ago there were several dozen car manufacturers in France ... each manufacturer had its original solution, the customer could choose

today the trade handicaps lamentably the small constructor ... therefore there is more than the large ones which have a monopoly and do what they want

to unblock the situation it would be necessary to regulate the prices of raw materials and important supplies, to maintain equality between the big builder in place and the new ones

alas a new manufacturer, not only pays too much raw material, but in addition faces all kinds of regulations and standards that make astronomical costs, disproportionate for a new manufacturer: conclusion there is no new, no competition, no real progress

the new will be in countries less stuck than at home and we will not even take advantage of it: our standards will prohibit importation
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