The industrial obsolescence, history of deception

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kistinie
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The industrial obsolescence, history of deception




by kistinie » 28/07/10, 22:48

How to consume, sustainable, while more and more products are unilaterally programmed for a short life?


Moderation added by moderation: the video is no longer available but you can watch the report of Special Envoy on the subject: https://www.econologie.com/grand-bluff- ... sommation/
http://envoye-special.france2.fr/les-re ... bluff.html



Debate: Company-and-philosophy / the great-bluff-sur-France-2-company-of-disposable-t9342.html

And more recently (and even more interesting), at the beginning of 2011, the documentary of Arte: "Prêt à jet" in full here
https://www.econologie.com/telechargeme ... rogrammee/
ou





What the law says:

In France:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dol
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dol_en_dro ... n%C3%A7ais

In Anglo Saxon law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misrepresentation

In the case 2, so for a huge part of our planet, there is fraud, ie, lie and deception by hiding an important feature of the product, product become highly crap, carefully constituted to make it very fragile and so, program it for an ever shorter life.

A good of consumption: Guarantee: 1 to 2 years
Home: Warranty: 10 years ... while your credit will last 20 to 30 years.



To learn more

Press right now:
A detailed file on the subject in the July issue of 69 issue of Nexus magazine, currently on newsstands.
http://www.nexus.fr/nexus_en_kiosque.php

Also read in this issue of Nexus, an edifying article on electroculture ... which dates from ... 1912.


There remains the question:

How to act to stop this obviously illegal deception?

Class Action? Canada? France ... We can dream

Ideas for action?
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by Christophe » 29/07/10, 11:52

We already have a topic about the special correspondent that you quote from a few months ago: https://www.econologie.com/forums/le-grand-b ... t9342.html

The action is to educate people so that they stop being caught for cons ... the report of special envoy contributes ...

ps: for the youtube video "This video includes content from Sony Music Entertainment. This content is no longer available in your country." if you have a mirror site, I am a buyer ...
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kistinie
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by kistinie » 29/07/10, 12:21

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cyr-DJwy_qQ

The link still seems active, but cut into 5 pieces.

Christophe, educate certainly, but apart from knowing perfectly why and how you feel bad, it does not seem to change much.
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by Christophe » 29/07/10, 12:25

yes the one walks but it's not the link kamini though? it's the one that does not work ...

As for the solutions, it was proposed in the other subject precisely: https://www.econologie.com/forums/le-grand-b ... t9342.html

For my part I think that a "course of (good) consumption" from the college would be one of the solutions ...
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by kistinie » 30/07/10, 23:23

A simple solution would be a longer warranty obligation.

Another is the prohibition of cheap technologies at manufacturing but horribly expensive to use because of their poor performance.


For example:

Prohibition of the universal motor and its efficiency of 30% instead of 90 to 99% of the permanent magnet motor or the synchronous motor in resonant mode with its load (See the Rotoverter of Hector Perez):
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moteur_universel


Prohibit crappy battery chargers that destroy them in 100 cycles, instead of possible 800. Example with lead:
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/c ... orithm.pdf


This will increase the purchase price slightly, and thus make it less acceptable to have a short life.

On the other hand the total cost of purchase + consumption / number of hours of service, will be significantly lower.
Last edited by kistinie the 31 / 07 / 10, 09: 01, 1 edited once.
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by chatelot16 » 31/07/10, 22:17

kistinie wrote:A simple solution would be a longer warranty obligation.

Another is the prohibition of cheap technologies at manufacturing but horribly expensive to use because of their poor performance.


For example:

Prohibition of the universal motor and its efficiency of 30% instead of 90 to 99% of the permanent magnet motor or the synchronous motor in resonant mode with its load (See the Rotoverter of Hector Perez):
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moteur_universel

This will increase the purchase price slightly, and thus make it less acceptable to have a short life.

On the other hand the total cost of purchase + consumption / number of hours of service, will be significantly lower.


before prohibiting you must be sure to know!

who said that the universal motor all had a yield of 30% ???

there is a bad drill that consumes 500w and which is less than 30% in mechanical power

There is an older, heavier drill with a universal motor that also consumes less and produces more mechanical power.

even the wrong 8 euro made china drill has an engine that can have a better efficiency at a lower voltage than 230v and has a lower power: while searching, we find a voltage, a speed and a power where we approach 100%, but this power is very weak

to make a better drill it would have to be much heavier

the performance is not the only quality of a drill: who would be willing to drag a drill 10 times heavier, to save a little electricity and make the work more painful


the universal motor has a very long life! : I still have vald'or flint drill (in 110v it must drag a transformer more) very standby, effective for drilling large diameter at low speed

I have a black drill and decker has three mechanical speed, very powerful that has 25ans! very polivalente thanks to its slow speed for the big hole, its fast speed for the tool with wood, or even to put a head to wire and to make a brush, it has a super guidance of the output shaft by 2 bearing: are universsel engine of origin has never weakened, but his electronic drive has dropped the first year, I used some years without dimmer, and since 10 years I put the dimmer a small drill made in china

Do you believe that an electronically controlled motor drill will last longer than a single universal motor!
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by kistinie » 31/07/10, 23:40

Before, a long time ago, it was solid, that we had all noticed.

The universal motor is economically attractive for the manufacturer (not the user), if it is very small, so pushed to the maximum of its rotational speed, and therefore very low efficiency. In the end, it goes hand in hand with small bearings, undersized accessories, rikiki coals ... Welcome to 2010.

To maintain a powerful weight / power ratio, and indeed higher than the best MU, the permanent magnet motor is the only option possible. It is used in 100% of hand tools to save battery energy, but unfortunately, at 99%, in a brush version. Without brushes, the indispensable controller then poses the problem of quality is the reliability of the control electronics, but that should not be one, because it can be limited to a few components, so easy to make very reliable.

Note that Dyson for its vacuum cleaners (guaranteed 5 years) and Dewoo for some washing machines now use PMBL (permanent magnet brushless) therefore without brush, magnet, to reduce consumption and weight. So it is possible, and curiously, the guarantee offered is then longer.

In fixed applications, where the weight is acceptable, a tuned synchronous motor is another possible option.
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/rotoverter.htm


The universal motor or the synchronous motor not tuned, as they are used at the moment, are to be banned, in particular for recurring machines like fridge, washing machine, VMC, because of their insufficient efficiency, their logic always cheaper to produce, regardless of whether it costs 3 10 times more expensive to use because of its energy wastage, and its short life since the two are inseparable.
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by chatelot16 » 01/08/10, 11:11

the subject here is the obsolescence too fast of the material

a conventional universal motor drill has a very long life: everyone knows how it works and can not repair

if you put a hi tech engine without coal, there will be a big electronics impossible to repair without the shema and the special components

we come back to the main subject: for the hi tech hardware lasts a long time it is necessary to diffuse the know-how necessary to allow the repair

the electronic equipment up to 1980 is easy to repair: even without the diagram it is possible to follow the track of the printed circuit: I have done the shema of big industrial equipment and can now maintain them as long as it takes

but for more recent, with multilayer circuit and cms ... lla repair can only be done with the complete documentation

that the warranty is 1 years or 5 years does not change anything: the service life must be longer: my washing machine has 25ans: I not only changed a lot of room but modified the automation, to adapt to my desires ...

to reduce the energy of 20% gray to produce an object is without interest: to make it last 20ans instead of 2 years reduces the gray energy of manufacture by year of use of 1000%

to force the construction to extend the guarantee is not my solution

they must be obliged to provide the complete documentation enabling troubleshooting! even if this documentation must remain secret during the first year it must be available when the warranty is over

this documentation should be deposited in an official body of the manufacturer to be sure it is still available even if the manufacturer disappears

a long time ago I preferred to buy television philips because there was the complete schema in the notice: since a long time it does not exist any more, and how much customer would be able to judge if a schema in a leaflet is valid, or simple powder in the Yeux ...

it is necessary to invent a durable product label, that to obtain it, the manufacturer must provide all the doc allowing the repair: the body that gives this label verifies the validity of this documentation: this good documentation will not only allow to repair a long time, but also to facilitate the reutilization of the parts separated when the whole apparatus can no longer serve

this idea is especially valid for the automobile: I would like the car manufacturer who wants to keep their secret is really considered a scammer


this sustainable product label will be very important for new and small manufacturers like me: how to sell something if the customer believes that the big brands are safer: with this system I could say that even if in 10ans I no longer exist the material that I sold you will always be repaired by any competent person because the neccessary documentation will always be available!
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by Christophe » 01/08/10, 11:46

Educating and informing people to buy products "with a minimum of quality" will consequently prohibit products of "shit" because they will no longer be sold, therefore no longer manufactured, no need to go through complicated laws for that ...

How do you want a drill 800W 10 € (if it exists) has the same performance and life of the model equivalent to 100 €?
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by Obamot » 01/08/10, 12:05

Personally, I sometimes have trouble "digesting" certain words of Kristinie (which sometimes flirt with the subliminal : Mrgreen: but I must say that he is one of the most intelligent sons I have had the opportunity to read.

Alas, this is very, very far. The United Nations linguistic service had addressed a directly related issue and even worked on the "Built-in obsolescence" ou "Planed obsolescence":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-in_obsolescence

In French, planned obsolescence:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsolescen ... amm%C3%A9e

... which does not mean, neither more nor less, what everyone already suspected: the "scheduled destruction" of a good of consumption.

It is a marked deception of the consumer. And instead of being "admitted as a fatality", should be severely punished.
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