The industrial obsolescence, history of deception

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oiseautempete
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by oiseautempete » 04/08/10, 08:40

Obamot wrote:We can VOTE by choosing better products!


For many products we can no longer "vote" simply because they are no longer manufactured in Europe at all ...
This is the case of the vast majority of small appliances, almost all clothing, consumer electronics ... Only are still manufactured here high-end products, such as my shoes Mephisto. ..which cost 5x the price of a pair of Chinetoque imitations ...
And we finally get what we pay for: after having prematurely sold 3 washing machines made in France of medium range (which all came out of the same multi-brand factory in the Lyonnaise region with the same (stupid) design flaws), I ended up buying a Miele: 3x more expensive of course, but there at least more trouble since ... My handheld power tool is Festool: do not look in DIY store: it's almost pros mathos indestructible for a handyman, but 3x more expensive than mathos handyman ...
But it goes much further: do you know that since almost 10ans most of the gasoline engine parts are no longer manufactured in Western Europe? Even Audi makes 90% of its petrol engines in the Czech Republic ...
To those who would like the indestructible and the repairable:
Already the durable does not exist, the old materials were long because they were repairable (repair cost much lower than the replacement price), because they were simple design and because they were (sometimes) made with oversized materials ...
Today many products have become so sophisticated (programmable microcircuits, servo, etc ...) that it is impossible to repair them either, or even by an electronics craftsman.The cars are a good example: their level of perfection is such that it is almost impossible to tinker with, even with a very complete doc ... Yet, despite what some believe, cars have never been as durable and reliable as at present: I remind you that in the 70 years still, the cars often broke down, it was necessary to drain all the 5000km, etc ..., and the cars were already rusted in the catalog (average life = 5ansans perforations serious, when the durability of engines it was downright lottery ... even the Mecedes and Porsches rustled at full speed, it just took longer because the sheets were a little better painted and thicker than the paper French or Italian cigarettes ...
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by Aumicron » 04/08/10, 08:50

Obamot wrote:the leaders are WE.

Exactly. We are responsible for not putting in place actions to stop the surfing of these products of m .... in our shelves. These products exist mainly because the human being is not respected. It does not matter whether it is in China, Spain or France.
Let's act against this plague. Outside Europe, let's apply deterrent taxes and inside apply the laws.

Indeed, as said SurfeursebToday everyone prefers to have a thermal mower . This is not a problem. If the mowers are manufactured in a "socially acceptable framework" they will be more expensive than 100 euros and therefore the price of the additional quality will be relatively low.
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 04/08/10, 11:02

lm'automobile is a good example of misuse of electronics

With PCs the complexity is worse but you can easily change the hard disk memory cards graphics, with a large choice of different brands on the same machine: there is software to analyze and diagnose: there are many information on the internet

for the car manufacturers have managed to lock everything: even with the bus can should connect any diagnostic case on any car manufacturers have all locked

alas I have never had the means to buy a new car, I must be content with that which sells used, without means to put pressure on the manufacturer

this is what I will do if I had the time and the money: I would spend a lot of time with a salesman to choose a beautiful car: once chosen the model, the options, the color, the negotiation of some discount, let's see the means diagnostic, the interface for laptop ... this is not possible ... keep your m .... and remind me when your builder will understand that to sell cars to the ecologist will do what it takes to that your car can be maintained by the customer

I really call this way of keeping these secrets as selling only half of the car

even someone who does not intend to open the hood himself must be aware that if he buys an entire car with free electronic tool this car will have a great opportunity value for a long time: if the car has a locked electronics it will become unsaleable to the first problem: it should even become unsaleable:

it's already what happens in some african countries: the car complicated peugeot or renault no longer worth any value: it's the special Japanese car africa that have value: it's a powerful model but simple which are not even sold in europe

the there could be a law to make: to oblige the manufacturers to diffuse all the know how of which it does not provide the parts and the services at a reasonable price: it is to say when it wants to sell 2000 euro the box electronics of an old car that is not worth more than that: it must be obliged to provide all the technical doc so that we can repair the lie to change

there will have to be a new programmable electronic box market for a large number of cars, so as not to buy an original box that is too expensive and can be mounted on a single car
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by pb2488 » 04/08/10, 11:18

chatelot16 wrote:alas I have never had the means to buy a new car, I must be content with that which sells used, without means to put pressure on the manufacturer
The second-hand market influences the new one.
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by chatelot16 » 04/08/10, 11:50

of course that the market of the ocasion influences a little on the buyer of nine but not enough

how can the new buyer estimate the selling price of his new car that he has the intension to sell in 5 years?

I think that a manufacturer who would make a good publicity to say: we are not necessarily more solid car than the others but with diagnostic software for laptop some, and complete technical documentation to facilitate the maintenance: even if you do not do not have the interest to repair your car yourself, this documentation will guarantee a very good resale value used
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by Obamot » 04/08/10, 12:24

oiseautempete wrote:
Obamot wrote:We can VOTE by choosing better products!


For many products we can no longer "vote" simply because they are no longer manufactured in Europe at all ...


Mouarf, should stop a bit ... What does this have to do with the place of production? Nothing! But rather with a question of mentality / s amha.

I totally agree that we need to fight this sore "built-in obsolescence". Often too, the proof of a total lack of imagination of the builders.

But there stops the parallel. There were ALSO many significant breakthroughs in favor of consumers.
- the introduction of the CE standard, which guarantees the safety of the product.
- the introduction of the guarantee of two years (or even three years). I agree that we can design products that will break down AFTER, but it becomes tangent ...
- the legal instation of "warranty for defects", which means that if a design defect inherent in the product is the cause of the failure, the warranty continues to run even beyond the end of the legal warranty period. This is a difficult point to be accepted by the buyer in his efforts, but it happens sometimes and this point should be better known.

These breakthroughs have also been the fruit of many builders themselves, especially in Asia or traditionally the products are better designed by the mere fact of their mentality which is diametrically opposed to ours.

Remember the patented "Phillips" audio cassette, which was deliberately designed in a restricted way to limit its quality. At the last moment, negotiations with BASF had failed (for a larger and better designed model) It is indeed to the Japanese that we owe, subsequently, to have exceeded the hi-fi standards of these media.
Ditto for Japanese vehicles, initially so disparaged, which in the end prove to be the most reliable on the market (breakdown statistics in support).

Ditto in photography, video, and television, or the Japanese have long exceeded Europe in the report excellence / price.

What about the unglamorous era of Europeans, champions of protectionism?

Say that in the state, I am more satisfied with Asian products than those who come from Europe or the United States, sold more expensive and overall less good.

I dare not even speak of the non-existent "service" of most of the majors with their hot-lines which make you hang around indefinitely and which wear you out: typically American and now generalized in Europe. Not to mention that the after-sales service usually takes the opportunity to sell you something so that it earns them more ...

The West is probably worse still in the computer, with the virtual absence of downward compatibility. Do you still want me to talk about Microsoft and Windows?

It would be necessary beforehand that in Europe, and historically in the West, we make our self-criticism. It could pay off ...

Finally we forget a crucial point, it is the price of the labor which exceeds the price of the repair of the goods which are sold to us. This is the vicious circle. Our lack of respect for the work done by man and raw materials, leads manufacturers to depreciate de facto consumer goods, driven by competitive pressure, since everyone does the same!

Perhaps a ten-year guarantee should be introduced to ensure that "on-board faults" if they are true, be "covered" so that things can change? Or should the consumer goods be rented for a period of five or ten years (and no longer selling). At least like that, those who rent them would have an interest in making them last ... But I am aware that such a solution would have a significant administrative cost.
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Surfeurseb
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by Surfeurseb » 04/08/10, 13:17

And why not establish a principle of total responsibility of the manufacturer, facing the end of life of its products?

it shocks me that we can sell anything, and then be completely free from reprocessing problems.
(Of course, the legislative ground is not completely blank on this subject)

Yet who better than the manufacturer knows how to disassemble and what to recover, in its products?
Even better, if he were responsible for the reprocessing, he would take into account in the design the possibility of reusing some hard or soft elements, the ease of dismantling and replacement, the use of materials really recyclable.
And rather than having to deal with the return of a defective product, he would prefer to repair it cheaply.

Who would lose there? Manufacturers of products of m ****, unscrupulous,
faced with the costs of waste reprocessing, which will skyrocket.

After, what is one of the biggest environmental problems of the moment, if not the reprocessing and recycling of waste?
This is where you have to push the nail!

As far as cars are concerned, the problem is in accelerating the renewal of the fleet. There is simply no time to work on aspects now considered secondary.
Example: changing a lighthouse bulb. How to accept the fact that now this has to be done in concession, with sometimes 2 hours of manpower?
Simply for questions of look, the manufacturer has neglected the maintenance side.

To act by the wallet? Only a very small portion of consumers are buying what they really need.
Most of the time, we are remote controlled, even when we think we are making a well thought-out, counter-current choice.
Like those who think they are doing well, who buy a Prius to reduce their "footprint".

The portion of savvy people can not, on its own, influence sales enough to give a strong signal to manufacturers.
Unfortunately, they are still the ones creating the demand.
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by Obamot » 04/08/10, 13:29

It is not false. On the other hand, all manufacturers have become prisoners of their paradigm.
Those who put their pockets in their pockets are less often manufacturers than retailers and resellers.

A pair of jeans sold around 100 € uros in mall, but bought less than ten euros in Thailand ...

Much more far-reaching reports in raw materials: from 1 to 150 for rubber (20 dollars paid to raise a tonne which is then sold ~ 3000 dollars in the commodity market), 1 to 1000 for tea ... etc ...

Let's not forget that our standard of living and purchasing power are directly related to this state of affairs.
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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 04/08/10, 13:45

the manufacturer in general Chinese has nothing to do with the end of life of the product

finally, because today the price of labor in France and even the scrap metal are a victim ... we do not dismount in France to sort copper iron and other metals salable to the foundry: we put everything in bulk in container destination China ...

worse there are standards that indirectly prohibit repair: for example the manifold blocks are mounted with head screws bizare indémable, it is enough that a son is poorly welded inside and we can not even dismount to repair, except the hard-fired as months that drill a hole in the screw head with a drill left

for most products the CE norms do not guarantee anything for the quality: there is only the security which counts: a product in breakdown is not dangerous

in africa he understood everything: he knows that standard CE means for european handyman: since the standard CE the worst Chinese tool are sold in Europe and the best without CE standard are sold in the rest of the world!

Another absurdity: before the CE standards it was standard NFxxxxxx: with the exact number of the standard one could obtain this standard and see what quality it guaranteed: in general I was disappointed, it often guaranteed only points that I found futile without guaranteeing what I thought was important

May with CE it's worse there is not even a number: it's very difficult to know what standard the manufacturer claims to restore ...

in addition the norms are scandalously expensive and forbidden to copy ... when I worked in a big company it was enough to call our service documentation to have the photocopy of the norm which interested me ... for the normal citizen the same thing is ruinous

it makes my hair stand on end when I see on afnor's entry paper "public interest association"
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by chatelot16 » 04/08/10, 13:54

Obamot wrote:Remember the patented "Phillips" audio cassette, which was deliberately designed in a restricted way to limit its quality. At the last moment, negotiations with BASF had failed (for a larger and better designed model) It is indeed to the Japanese that we owe, subsequently, to have exceeded the hi-fi standards of these media.
Ditto for Japanese vehicles, initially so disparaged, which in the end prove to be the most reliable on the market (breakdown statistics in support).


yes distrust with the great european brand: fortunately the japanese and chinese are there to move things forward!

today I fall on the same thing with a great television widescreen philips that has only HDMI jack while all the big Chinese screen has taken more than a good old VGA to connect to any computer

HDMI is a crap crap oddly to spoil the advantage of digital and prohibit the copying of DVDs ... side effect ca complicates lamentably the use of this kind of screen as a computer display
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