2019 resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?

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Ahmed
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by Ahmed » 15/01/19, 17:56

Nico239, you ask yourself:
Uh, are you sure about that?
Wouldn't he replace it with another?

This substitution phenomenon has certainly worked for a long time, from agriculture to industry, then from the latter to the tertiary sector, but with AI this latter sector is concerned. New jobs will result, but not in the measure of destruction (there is a thread dedicated to this important question).
What is dramatic is that hardly anyone questions a work-based system without questioning its content; I mean that everyone talks hysterically about "creating jobs", but without worrying whether these hypothetical creations would be useful or not, since this necessity only applies to the intrinsic functioning of the system (as well as the essential function of the commodity is only to increase the initial capital of which it is the bearer, therefore regardless of its particular nature and its utility [insofar as this last criterion is not opposed to market exchange]).
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by moinsdewatt » 16/01/19, 00:16

Ahmed wrote:
* In addition, the very movement of technical innovation inexorably destroys work, which is an internal contradiction ...



Yes, what a scandal, with the disappearance of the horse as a means of transport, all these jobs of Marshal Ferrand, groom, dung collector, horse trainers etc. who have disappeared.
........
: Cheesy:
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Adrien (ex-nico239)
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 16/01/19, 01:09

nico239 wrote:
Ahmed wrote:* In addition, the very movement of technical innovation inexorably destroys work


Are you sure about that?

Wouldn't he replace it with another?

After I agree that we can prefer work from before to work after: example manual work to robotic work but the two remain "works".


Ahmed wrote:Nico239, you ask yourself:
Uh, are you sure about that?
Wouldn't he replace it with another?

This substitution phenomenon has certainly worked for a long time, from agriculture to industry, then from the latter to the tertiary sector, but with AI this latter sector is concerned. New jobs will result, but not in the measure of destruction (there is a thread dedicated to this important question).
What is dramatic is that hardly anyone questions a work-based system without questioning its content; I mean that everyone talks hysterically about "creating jobs", but without worrying whether these hypothetical creations would be useful or not, since this necessity only applies to the intrinsic functioning of the system (as well as the essential function of the commodity is only to increase the initial capital of which it is the bearer, therefore regardless of its particular nature and its utility [insofar as this last criterion is not opposed to market exchange]).



BEWARE of WORDS ... : Mrgreen:

You talk about "work".

Then you zap on "job"

It's not the same thing.

So precise.
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by Ahmed » 16/01/19, 12:15

Moinsdewatt, you write:
Yes, what a scandal, with the disappearance of the horse as a means of transport, all these jobs of Marshal Ferrant, groom, dung collector, horse trainers, etc. which have disappeared.
........
: Cheesy:

It is not at all a question of that which must only translate the fact that capitalism is always a revolution in process, but of another, more recent phenomenon, which renders more and more useless a growing mass of workers. In addition, this trend is largely hidden due to the creation of non-productive jobs which only generate "incidentals" (in the sense of the system).

@ Nico239: employment and work are practically synonymous even if we take here "employment" in the restricted sense of salaried work, since this is the most general case today.
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by lemontval » 16/01/19, 20:26

Exnihiloest wrote:
Christophe wrote:...
Fortunately we are told: capitalism is the best of systems !!

: Cry: : Cry: : Cry:

Show us a better system that worked!


Which does not mean that we should not invent one !! : Wink:
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 16/01/19, 21:13

Ahmed wrote:@ Nico239: employment and work are practically synonymous even if we take here "employment" in the restricted sense of salaried work, since this is the most general case today.


No, it's different.

Robots do work without being in paid employment

AI also does work without being in paid employment

However, both were produced by salaried jobs: at least originally because there may be robots that build robots who knows?


But hey I understand the idea.

Difficult to say what AI will produce on paid employment, it's a bit like global warming, the great debate or other great controversy of the century without however going back to VallodolidImage : we will only know in a few months or years or even centuries.
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by Ahmed » 16/01/19, 22:02

I also understand the meaning of your remark, but the difficulty lies in these words which have different meanings according to the levels of analysis.
That a robot or AI can replace a worker by performing the same task does not, in my opinion, mean that it constitutes work (at the level of the abstract value incorporated into the goods, not of its physical production). Of course, it depends on the prior definition that one wants to give ...
If we stay on yours, you answer positively to your own question in your message above ... : Wink:
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by Adrien (ex-nico239) » 17/01/19, 17:23

Here it is timely

The world's first Robot Hotel fires half of its robot staff because they create more work than they do

https://www.developpez.com/actu/241722/ ... lissaient/
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by Ahmed » 17/01/19, 18:26

It is understandable that there are quirks in certain applications for which the capacities of the robots are not yet adapted.
I should also point out that part of the automation surreptitiously uses unpaid human workers, as is the case when you fill your train ticket at the machine or the same thing in front of your computer, with the printing bonus document! And this is just an example ...
This last remark shows that there is a coevolution of the technical system and human behavior, or more exactly that the evolution of the first requires an adaptation of the second (which is far from being the same thing) ...
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Re: 2019 Resolution: (try to) do not buy anything new! Boycott of the new?




by sen-no-sen » 17/01/19, 18:45

Today (and the trend should continue) we are far from a robotic world.
Overall the use of robots, especially in the field of services is a waste.
Automation is not a trend in itself, but a trend to promote profitability.
The real danger for employment lies in the use of AI, software (therefore not expensive) but not really hardware (very expensive robot).
It is indeed much more profitable to use poorly paid human personnel than to employ very expensive robotics in materials and maintenance.
It is therefore highly qualified or easily automated jobs that are most threatened (doctor, airline pilots, train driver counter, etc.), so there is still a lot of room for manual trades or human contacts (caregiver, nurse, plumber, mechanic etc) because not profitable in the context of automation.
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