Retirement ... at what age?

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xaveco
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View xaveco » 24/09/10, 22:15

Bonjour à tous
Good to start I admit that I was wrong, the de facto is annual :frown: In any case, if there is something I am sure of, it is that when you want to know something it is better to look for it yourself than to ask someone who knows: : Evil:
Suddenly, with my bullshit, : Shock: , I leaned a little more on the subject.
In fact, you have to take into account a lot of parameters like:

-The retired assets report
-The employment rate
-The productivity
-GDP and especially the percentage point of pensions in it.
-The sharing of added value ...
Rather than long speeches:
In attachment a small Power-Point that I found quite simple with some figures, reports, graphs taken from the COR, INSEE, INED since 1960:

https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... mnGOkd.pdf

It's up to you to draw some conclusions (and checks if you have time)
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pb2488
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View pb2488 » 25/09/10, 08:35

xaveco wrote: https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... mnGOkd.pdf
It's up to you to draw some conclusions (and checks if you have time)

"Tax shield: 10 to 15 billion per year"

Isn't it in the 500 million?
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bamboo
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View bamboo » 25/09/10, 09:57

xaveco wrote: in any case if there is something I am sure of is that when wants to know something better to search for it yourself than to ask someone who knows :

And suddenly, you thought that a good powerpoint from your union hierarchy would be full of truths : Cheesy:
probably because they don't know? : Cheesy:

I am teasing you :D

However, as indicated by pb, the tax shield is counted in hundreds of millions of Euros, not in billions ...

This leaves little hope of having the rest of the document honest ...
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xaveco
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View xaveco » 25/09/10, 23:07

There is no hierarchy in the union to which I belong : Cheesy: decisions are made at the General Assembly : Cheesy: ( when it's possible )
The document does not come from a Union Organization in particular but from a collective. I find that the graphics and especially the relationships between them are interesting, after it is certain that this document is not oriented in favor of the reform that the government imposes on us. But at least it opens the debate on other proposals than the reduction of the retirement age or the pivotal age (removal of the discount) which will mechanically lower retirement pensions. Besides, this is what worries the OS the most. Lowering retirement pensions is actually lower wages. Even if direct wages don't drop (whatever the 3% increase in employee contributions for civil servants and the like will be a drop in their direct wages) so-called indirect wages (pensions + social security + unemployment) decrease. Basically accepting the current reform will be accepting a drop in wages. I think there are other ways in 2010 to finance pensions than hitting the working people once again, the only people who produce wealth.
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bamboo
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View bamboo » 26/09/10, 10:29

xaveco wrote:But at least it opens the debate on other proposals than the reduction of the retirement age or the pivotal age


"to open the debate" starting from false bases, it is not very productive ...
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Christophe
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View Christophe » 26/09/10, 11:07

Apart from this figure, there are lots of speculations and misleading directions in the doc, 2 examples:

Especially since it is estimated that in the next 40 years, productivity should double again…


This may be true on a global scale, but surely not for industry in France ... unless we are talking in everyday currency ... obviously ...

In the last twenty years, the wealth (GDP) of France has doubled and a further doubling is expected by 2050.


Ah great, we are talking in current currency, so not corrected by inflation. What does constant currency do? Because this is what counts for the purchasing power of the unionists ...

The GDP development curve seems to me to be wrong ... at least adapted ...

http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tableau.a ... page=graph

Image
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nonoLeRobot
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View nonoLeRobot » 26/09/10, 11:40

The link on INSEE is in current currency?

Because it is the evolution compared to the previous year. So apart from 94 and 2009 it actually only increases by 2 or 3% which corresponds well to doubling in 30 - 40 years.
Last edited by nonoLeRobot the 26 / 09 / 10, 11: 45, 1 edited once.
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Gébé
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View Gébé » 26/09/10, 11:45

xaveco wrote:I think there are other ways in 2010 to finance pensions than hitting the working people once again, the only people who produce wealth.


Once again xaveco it is a question of being precise, let us therefore study as you ask us each of the financing proposals for your pps (before last page): https://www.econologie.info/share/partag ... mnGOkd.pdf

revaluation of wages

The increase in the wage bill mechanically leads to an increase in prices and takes up with one hand what has been given with the other


End of tax exemption for overtime (400 jobs)

Except that it is generally modest employees who benefit from this measure which in most cases suits them well to make ends meet. They will be delighted.
Suppressing it again corresponds to an increase in the wage bill with its consequences.

End of exemption from employer contributions (30 billion per year)

Same principle same consequences

Combating precarious work and imposed part-time work
Promote youth employment
100 fewer unemployed = 000 billion additional contributions.

Who could say indeed that these are not good ideas !!
Except that if employers are forced to hire only on permanent and full-time contracts, I fear that it will be necessary to reverse the last proposal.
Encouraging the employment of young people .... a formula which is unanimous of course ... but how? By exemptions from employer contributions ???

Elimination of tax loopholes (70 to 150 billion per year)


TOP 10 tax loopholes that cost the most in the state in 2009
-1- Research tax credit: 5.8 billion euros
-2- VAT at 5.5% for renovation works: 5.15 billion euros
-3- Employment bonus: 4.02 billion euros
-4- Tax credit for the employment of an employee at home: 3.9 billion euros
-5- Exemption or reduced taxation of products attached to vouchers or life insurance contracts: 3.0 billion euros
-6- 5.5% VAT applicable to catering: 3.0 billion euros
-7- Sustainable development tax credit:: 2.8 billion euros
-8- 10% reduction on the amount of pensions: 2.65 billion euros
-9- Exemption for certain health insurance contracts: 2.2 billion euros
-10- Exemption from family benefits: 1.6 billion euros

It will not only make people happy and not only the "rich"
but maybe well
xaveco wrote: hit the people who work again


Abolition of the tax shield (10 to 15 billion per year)

cf indy and pb, the 2009 amount is 679 million

Hunting tax evasion (29 to 40 billion per year)

Okay, but easier said than done ...
Hunt for tax havens

More and more agree but easier said than done ...

10% of dividends paid to shareholders = 1% of GDP


Assuming that this figure is correct, they are already taxed at 30,1% (18pfl + 12,1csg-rds) As said indy, how far do you want to go? Knowing that if it does not bring anything more, your tax base will disappear.

In conclusion, I do not believe that you have found us the 150 billion € that we currently lack to balance the social accounts since in the background this is what it is all about, the deficit of pensions cannot be isolated since the solutions you propose are not.
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Christophe
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View Christophe » 26/09/10, 11:57

The GDP is always given in current currency, which is why it is not very credible ... but hey ... it does not seem to generate anyone except "us": https://www.econologie.com/pib-developpe ... -3483.html

The GDP has evolved well (but it has not doubled in 20 years since we go from 300 to 400 G € per quarter or 33% of evolution over 20 years!) But in all cases this does not correspond to the same creation of wealth vis-à-vis purchasing power since inflation has to be taken into account over the same period.

And in my opinion inflation has been higher than 33% since 1990 ...

38% based on: http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/indicateu ... tfranc.htm

So in the end the GDP / purchasing power has fallen in 20 years ... or at least has remained constant.

In other words, in 2009, less wealth was created in France than in 1990 ... at constant purchasing power! And that's why we have the impression that poverty and insecurity are increasing ... it's not just an impression!

In addition the definition of inflation is also to be reviewed because, for example, it does not take into account real estate ... https://www.econologie.com/forums/l-inflatio ... t2178.html

It's everything I wanted to say...
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Gébé
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View Gébé » 26/09/10, 12:09

I would add that if the reasoning is correct, it's worse than that if we reason in GDP / inhabitant since the population has increased.
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