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ABC2019
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Re: my apologies




by ABC2019 » 17/04/22, 07:42

humus wrote:
Exnihiloest wrote:You claim to understand that others have not understood you, when you obviously do not understand the answers!
The fact that nature is not only competition, it is scientifically perfectly recognized, in no way demonstrates that we should venerate it.

Well, it's a bit like ABC, "false banner attack".
Where did you see me talking about worshiping anything?
Being grateful to nature, your body, I assure you it will do you good, and us with it.
I don't practice this recognition enough but I have done it before, so I can talk about it. : Wink:

Exnihiloest wrote:If competition seems to be the general rule, we also occasionally see collaborations that work, occurring among the multitude of operations linked to the method of attempts/success/failures, and which are chosen for their success. It does not make it the result of a conscience that would have made this choice according to moral criteria, unlike man whose societies have always presented forms of solidarity, and even forms of institutionalized solidarity.

Human beings are supposed to have an advantage over all living things : Arrow: a conscience and the RESPONSIBILITY that results from it.
Perhaps the human being can, and MUST, be more intelligent than the primal nature, because of this power, because of this responsibility?

Your speech does not take off from the instincts / primary rules of nature.
Long live the planet of the apes who think they are scholars! Is that all you have to offer? Copy nature in what is most primary?
Not a lot of ambition...for a cador


uh but just above you said that nature was a model to be followed and you used a vocabulary that seemed to endow nature with consciousness...

well, no one denies that there are natural phenomena where living beings cooperate and others where they compete, both in humans and in the rest of life. I don't really see what to do with this observation. Man is obviously also in cooperation in many structures, family, circle of friends; company, nation, which does not prevent it from being also in competition by other with dimensions; it obviously has no risk or chance of changing; To believe that you are going to revolutionize the world by enacting a general principle that everyone should follow seems very naive to me...
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Re: my apologies




by humus » 17/04/22, 08:33

ABC2019 wrote:
uh but just above you said that nature was a model to be followed and you used a vocabulary that seemed to endow nature with consciousness...

Well no, I never said that nature was a model to follow, I said that nature is not only competition and gave an illustration of this with the tree-mushroom relationship.
I did not say either that this relationship came from a conscience.
In my heart there is probably one that still eludes us but it does not matter.
I don't mind whether there is a conscience at work or not, unlike "you" who want that there is none.
If there is no conscience in front, it is more guilt-free to destroy, to predate, to compete in all recklessness.


ABC2019 wrote: I don't really see what to do with this observation. Man is obviously also in cooperation in many structures, family, circle of friends; company, nation, which does not prevent it from also being in competition from other sides; it obviously has no risk or chance of changing

Yes, man know cooperation.
The economic system is predation, competition, it even uses to make a warrior vocabulary (heart of target, strategy, conquer, etc.)
I dare to put forward the idea that for a society, the search for harmony and cooperation would be more satisfying for the actors and for nature.
The world is simply our home and living beings our family.
Being grateful to all those beings who allow us to breathe oxygen, does that help to be less aggressive?

ABC2019 wrote:To believe that you are going to revolutionize the world by enacting a general principle that everyone should follow seems very naive to me...

It's funny this recurring desire to give me the role of the one who claims to change the world, it's a bit of a way to discredit me completely and for free.
In fact, I am only describing what many do not see, and then everyone's vision does its work.
Only when you don't refuse to see, for protection of what you are, right? : Lol:
So it's not me who's going to change the world, it's you.
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Re: my apologies




by ABC2019 » 17/04/22, 10:36

humus wrote:It's funny this recurring desire to give me the role of the one who claims to change the world, it's a bit of a way to discredit me completely and for free.

Ah that's what I understood from your words, sorry if I misinterpreted them. It's not in itself a bad thing, it's just that we don't understand what you really want to change.
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Re: my apologies




by Exnihiloest » 17/04/22, 11:43

humus wrote:...
Human beings are supposed to have an advantage over all living things : Arrow: a conscience and the RESPONSIBILITY that results from it.
Perhaps the human being can, and MUST, be more intelligent than the primal nature, because of this power, because of this responsibility?

The human has no duty other than those he attributes to himself. Who do you want them to come from?!

Your speech does not take off from the instincts / primary rules of nature.
Long live the planet of the apes who think they are scholars! Is that all you have to offer? Copy nature in what is most primary?
Not a lot of ambition...for a cador

I didn't offer anything! I made observations.
Human freedom of action is total and arbitrary, limited only by the laws of nature. We see the progress made since the beginning of humanity. This progress is generated only thanks to the dynamic adaptation of men to their own evolution. Humanity sets its own morality, and its morality evolves according to times (and places too). That is to say that the choices for the future are revised according to the present where we have arrived. It's the complete opposite of what you're suggesting. You would like us to set ourselves for the future, on the basis of the ideas of the present time, a sclerotic ideology which should motivate all our choices; whereas in just 10 years, these ideas can become obsolete or even combated. Imagine the impasse into which a Humus would have led us if he made this choice in feudal times.
My proposal is to make our evolution not according to plans drawn on the comet, but according to small touches taking into account the state of society at that time and the short-term orientation that we want to give it. And oh surprise, that's already how it works! Great, just modify the "small keys" to go where you want. Even individual choices are found at the collective level, a statistical question. Change your own life, and if your model pleases, you will change society.
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Re: my apologies




by humus » 17/04/22, 19:58

Pfff too easy to answer you, I didn't come there for that....
Exnihiloest wrote:The human has no duty other than those he attributes to himself. Who do you want them to come from?!

The guy with the power of nuclear fire, don't you think he has the responsibility that goes with it?

"Who would you like them to come from?!" : Arrow: Maybe something you seem to be lacking that's commonly called consciousness.

"no duties other than those which he assigns to himself." : Arrow: absolutely, when consciousness is functioning.
I can see that you don't want to take on the responsibility incumbent on humans with regard to their enormous power of destruction. (I'm not referring to nuclear fires but to unconscious growingism, also called capitalism coupled with unusual brain capacities in the animal kingdom : Mrgreen: )

It would be so much happier for all life on Earth, including humans, if we used our (brain) power to (re)create an Eden on Earth.

Your speech does not take off from the instincts / primary rules of nature.
Long live the planet of the apes who think they are scholars! Is that all you have to offer? Copy nature in what is most primary?
Not a lot of ambition...for a cador

Exnihiloest wrote:I didn't offer anything! I made observations.

And does not issue any criticism about them so accept them.
Finally, if you advocate capitalism / destructive growth since it is consistent with the so-called law of nature which is competition. Another propagandist lie, well anchored on all sides, I grant you. Nature is also cooperation.
Don't slip away my darling.
apologies, I went up with macrote who becomes greener than green, oddly between 2 rounds, and the c.. who will believe him and vote for him... and it's my friend in a green frock coat who takes... : Mrgreen:

Exnihiloest wrote: Change your own life, and if your model pleases, you will change society.

Says the system that padlocks absolutely all aspects of life. : Lol: Yet another dishonesty/cynicism! : roll:
And no my dear, at the individual level, we can't do anything significant because an individual does not make society, nor even 10!
We need a mass effect, we need a revolution of minds.
Last edited by humus the 17 / 04 / 22, 20: 08, 2 edited once.
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Re: my apologies




by humus » 17/04/22, 20:06

ABC2019 wrote:it's just that we don't understand what you really want to change.

And what do you want to change? : Mrgreen:
Everything is fine ? All is for the best ?
We can't do anything better than the current world which is running to its loss?
When did you appropriate all this problem for yourself?

What I want to change is to get out of a world that is running out of money to enter at least into a world that is sustainable in terms of means.
It doesn't happen alone, nor with people satisfied with the current situation who see no reason to change anything, or what to change.
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Re: my apologies




by Exnihiloest » 17/04/22, 20:46

humus wrote:Pfff too easy to answer you, I didn't come there for that....
Exnihiloest wrote:The human has no duty other than those he attributes to himself. Who do you want them to come from?!

...
I can see that you don't want to take on the responsibility incumbent on humans with regard to their enormous power of destruction.

The power of destruction is part of the collective responsibilities. Regarding nuclear power, you have the right to crash each time a patient decides to invade your country, rather than dissuading him by your force by being prepared for it. Regarding growth and production, you have the right to want to refuse it to those who benefit from it, that is to say the majority of the peoples of Western countries, claiming that it is a destruction when it is a construction, but you will be sent back into your nets by them as Poutou, who also preaches your point of view, was.
Ask yourself why no one wanted a Poutou, and you will understand why no one would want to follow you either.

Your speech does not take off from the instincts / primary rules of nature.
Long live the planet of the apes who think they are scholars! Is that all you have to offer? Copy nature in what is most primary?
Not a lot of ambition...for a cador

I am a pragmatist. I adapt, and I bring my influence on society, at my very small level.
You think you have ambition, but your ambition is vain and your pretension ridiculous. Your way of seeing is bugged everywhere, and I gave you a few reasons why. If you're not followed, and the world is the opposite of what you advocate, don't be surprised, people aren't as stupid as you seem to think. They do not share your ideas and they are right.
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Re: my apologies




by humus » 18/04/22, 07:02

Exnihiloest wrote:The power of destruction is part of the collective responsibilities.

Therefore it is no less an individual responsibility.
Now that we know (it is still necessary not to deny scientific knowledge, it is still necessary to take the time to be interested in all that), each conscious individual should push for society to move towards sustainability.

Constraint, as you seem to point out, would be effective if it were enlightened.
Personally it is not my choice, I prefer enlightened democracy, rather than the current representative democracy, lobotomized, not to say lobbyized.


Exnihiloest wrote:I am a pragmatist. I adapt, and I bring my influence on society, at my very small level.
And what do you think I do?

Exnihiloest wrote:You think you have ambition, but your ambition is in vain
Demonstration?

Exnihiloest wrote:and your ridiculous pretension
What pretension precisely and ridiculous in what way?

Exnihiloest wrote: Your way of seeing is bugged everywhere, and I gave you a few reasons why. If you're not followed, and the world is the opposite of what you advocate, don't be surprised, people aren't as stupid as you seem to think. They do not share your ideas and they are right.

I'm not the only one to say this kind of thing.
If so people are ignorant and unaware. Less and less, fortunately but it is still too low.
Look at the citizens' convention, 150 people empowered, who once properly informed, arrived at proposals including some self-censored to avoid annoying the boomers too much in your style, well everything was then watered down by macrote.
When we know, when we could do and we don't, I don't call it pragmatism but bullshit.
More exactly greed/greed because this famous bullshit is on the contrary the result of a short-term calculation, which to clear its conscience, thinks itself pragmatic.
In general, we don't see each other stupid.
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ABC2019
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Re: my apologies




by ABC2019 » 18/04/22, 07:23

humus wrote:
Exnihiloest wrote:The power of destruction is part of the collective responsibilities.

Therefore it is no less an individual responsibility.
Now that we know (it is still necessary not to deny scientific knowledge, it is still necessary to take the time to be interested in all that), each conscious individual should push for society to move towards sustainability.

Constraint, as you seem to point out, would be effective if it were enlightened.
Personally it is not my choice, I prefer enlightened democracy, rather than the current representative democracy, lobotomized, not to say lobbyized.

oh well here is a proposal that could be concrete, if you define what you mean by "enlightened democracy"?
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Mééé denies nui went to parties with 200 people and was not even sick moiiiiiii (Guignol des bois)
ABC2019
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Re: my apologies




by ABC2019 » 18/04/22, 07:25

humus wrote:I'm not the only one to say this kind of thing.
If so people are ignorant and unaware. Less and less, fortunately but it is still too low.
Look at the citizens' convention, 150 people empowered, who once properly informed, arrived at proposals including some self-censored to avoid annoying the boomers too much in your style, well everything was then watered down by macrote.
When we know, when we could do and we don't.

except that it could also be people who BELIEVE themselves enlightened but are "lobotomized" by an idealistic discourse, and who BELIEVE that things are doable when they are not. They would react the same in this case.
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