Charlie Hebdo: eleven dead! Press freedom in question!

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chatelot16
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by chatelot16 » 12/01/15, 20:05

inviting mahmoud habbas rather than refusing benjamin netanyahu it's really great diplomacy ... too bad we had to assassinate cartoonists for that

the gathering of so many foreign leaders is truly spectacular!
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by Smik. » 13/01/15, 00:22

Obamot wrote:
Smik. wrote :
Obamot wrote:whatever the sponsors - conspiracy or not at the highest hierarchical level - now people will no longer be afraid. And this might be enough to turn the situation around!

Because in the state, do not veil the face: the Palestinian question and colonies - main claims of the attackers - are still not settled! And I hope with all my heart that today's protests will contribute in the same way that prevailed before the attacks: the creation of a Palestinian state that almost all the dinosaurs in Europe call their own. wishes. And I think that the demonstrations of support that were not anti-Arab or Muslim at all: will be very, very heavy in the resolution of the conflict.

We have, I think, passed the "point of no return",

On the other hand, I do not see what the Palestian question is doing here. I do not see the relationship with Charlie Hebdo.

[...] 1er Israeli Minister thanked the Muslim employee who hid the other customers.

After, we can always find arguments against or for.


Hello,

I totally respect your point of view, but it's not so much a question "for"VS"salary."argument, Smik. In my humble opinion, it is possibly a historical question, there behind (from 1967, fixing of the borders between the State of Israel and Palestine and never again respected by the Hebrew State). Those who committed the attacks were not even born at the time, but the ideological questions relating to this situation seem to persist over time, go understand ...

And even chronological! Do a search for "Charlie Hebdo" + Palestine and you will find 37,5 million hits ...

Edgard Morin (who happens to be a humanist among the most moderate) has alluded to it here (so it's no secret): http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attentat_c ... rlie_Hebdo

In hawks, Habib Meyer, a UDI deputy of the French from abroad in Israel, clearly made the same connection as me, with the positive vote of the National Assembly in favor of the recognition of Palestine, but he, it was not in the sense of a geopolitical analysis:

http://oumma.com a écrit :Meyer Habib instrumentalizes the attack on Charlie Hebdo by linking him to Palestine
http://oumma.com/219512/meyer-habib-ins ... arlie-hebd


... thus signing - in my humble opinion - a serious clue, whether on one of the historical causes of the problem - if it is not one of the direct "parties" of this conflict which is expressed, as about the killings: from the Westate to Kenya, Lindt-Sprungli to Sydney, Charlie Hebdo and the Hyper-Hide all Jewish interests (scandalous attacks that must be condemned without reservation.)

egaliteetreconciliation.fr wrote:In a statement, the UDI deputy of the French from abroad (Southern Europe and Israel) did not hesitate to make a link between the events of this morning in Paris and the vote by the Parliament in December of a resolution calling to the recognition of Palestine.
http://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/T ... 30106.html


More disturbing still (a secret even less for the French government):

Image

Christophe wrote:The absence of US representation yesterday, is debate (there especially)
... hum, hum, still not?

The most interesting is undoubtedly the fact that Netanyaou has established himself a warrior rapprochement in "Comparing the attack on 'Charlie Hebdo' to the sending of rockets by Hamas!"

Netanyahu wrote:"These terrorists kill journalists in Paris, they (...) launch rockets on civilians from Gaza"

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/3beef48 ... _les_rues/


Third and last "instrumentalization of the facts" by Israelis - who definitely do not do in appeasement and are really in a hurry to point the finger at the Palestinians themselves - appears here titling:

europe-israel News wrote:Attack against Charlie Hebdo: fire of joy at the Palestinian camp of Ain el-Heloue in Lebanon
http://www.europe-israel.org/2015/01/at ... -au-liban/


Ignoring the Hamas press release, which condemns the attacks on "Charlie Hebdo" >>> (but not against Hyper-Kosher, according to some sources ...)

Anyway, by so much insisting on pointing at Palestine, it's getting MUCH suspicious? (I think that in any warlike tactics, there are sometimes sacrifices to make: even if it means making victims in its own ranks, human history is full of such cases.)

There is no smoke without fire, the one who says is the one who ...
So it seems obvious "that things are happening", more or less directly linked to this conflict. And the top priority would be to give legitimacy to the Palestinians. Anyway, anyway, that would only be fair, but I think that all these cases would fall back then like a souffle, for lack of motive ...!

If after that I'm told there is no link, I want to be transformed into a frog : Mrgreen:


Hamas was never asked to talk about the two attacks. But it seems to me that this is not the case for the Israeli Prime Minister since French & Tunisian Jews were murdered. Otherwise we would have said, it's weird.

Getting to Israel, Palestine & Lebanon : Idea: let’s see that there’s a difference between what you write and life there. There are no more good guys or bad guys. Everyone is good and bad.

In one of the discussion threads, you questioned the journalists (the famous identity card found in the car) and there, you cite them as arguments for.

In short, thank you for confirming to me: "we can always find arguments against or for."

I give up this thread, I try to re-operate a lead / gel battery.
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by Christophe » 13/01/15, 00:37

At times our dear Obamot is quite hard to follow ... at least!
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by Obamot » 13/01/15, 01:46

Obamot, who replied by referring exclusively to the facts in great detail, that the Palestinian record was at least largely in perspective in these attacks wrote:
Smik. wrote :
Obamot wrote:[...] let's not hide our faces: the Palestinian question and the settlements - the main demands of the attackers - are still not resolved!

[...] I don't see what the Palestinian question is doing there. I don't see the connection with Charlie Hebdo.

[...] 1er Israeli Minister thanked the Muslim employee who hid the other customers.

After, we can always find arguments against or for.


[...] it's not so much a question "for"VS"salary."argument, it is possibly a historical question, [...] And even chronological! Do a search" Charlie Hebdo "+ Palestine and you will find 37,5 million occurrences ...


Smik. wrote :We never asked Hamas to talk about the 2 attacks.

This is not the problem indeed.
But so by saying that, you admit that there is a link with the Palestinians.

Smik. wrote :
Smik. wrote :[...] I do not see what the Palestinian question comes to do there. I don't see the connection with Charlie Hebdo.

But it seems to me that this is not the case for the Israeli Prime Minister since French & Tunisian Jews were murdered. Otherwise we would have said, it's weird.

It's not so much that we can qualify it as "bizarre"Since that's what was said, I posted the quotes and put the related links so you can go check it out.

From then on you can continue to say that "oranges are blue"like Hergé, it won't change a thing if no one has ever seen one. Sorry. But that's not the problem either.

You were doubting (legitimate, ignorance, denial or whatever), that the Palestinian cause could be linked in any way to these attacks.
Without expressing my personal opinion on this subject (which goes beyond and would require a political analysis) I was able to note quantities of links, noted by the Israelis themselves and not the least, and which demonstrate it (you could have do the same research, which would inevitably have led you to the same observations, and would have made the deductions which are necessary by yourself). I still don't understand what's bothering you?

There for an obscure reason, we suddenly change the subject, I can't explain why. Would you dislike the fact that the Palestinian cause - directly or indirectly linked to these attacks (but rather very closely) - in any way?

Because once again - we can have all kinds of advice without it being true - you could very well for example: have the opinion that the planes did not get embedded in the WTC towers on the 11th September 2001, and say to the cantonade "that we can find arguments for or against " that would not change the real facts!

Smik. wrote :Getting to Israel, Palestine & Lebanon : Idea: let’s see that there’s a difference between what you write and life there. There are no more good guys or bad guys. Everyone is good and bad.

Did you at least go there, I went there twice during my studies and for my job (1x in Israel and 1x on the border of the territories in the Lebanese zone).
I have the impression that you don't know anything about the situation there! Gaza is not Jerusalem, which is not the other Palestinian territories, if I add to that that the borders are not respected, you have the picture. I can develop this point if necessary ... And in detail. But that will not be my personal opinion, but a description of the facts on the ground (just like above just as well, I am only reporting facts ...)

Smik. wrote :In one of the discussion threads, you questioned the journalists (the famous identity card found in the car) and there, you cite them as arguments for.

Splash, sorry but it changes the subject again. I did not doubt this point, I only noted that:

1) The Israeli channel i24 published the names of the main suspects very early, long before it was talked about in France, or until the police released the information in question: but you may have a explanation?

2) similar facts have already happened in the past, or a very improbable identity document denouncing the attackers (in other attacks) it is an easy method, when you want to know who it is acts, but you don't want to reveal how you learned it ...

3) some sites (it is therefore not me) find it strange that these papers had been found, insofar as if any attacker wanted to commit other misdeeds thereafter, the sine qua non condition was that they had to remain anonymous - it is the least of the basic precautions to be taken in this type of situation, such as not to take an identity document, it is not for nothing either that these alleged jihadists change their names (! ) they are therefore experienced in techniques to remain anonymous (but you may have other hypotheses ...) - moreover they wore hoods, which would tend to show that they did everything not to to be recognized.

4) after in fact, everyone can have their own idea on the question. You judged me before you knew her, but I'll give it to you anyway: I think they were stupidly recognized by their voiceprint! The anti-terrorist services must have databases on this subject (they practice telephone tapping, and these two brothers had been listened to ... and if it is not the DST, it may be the Mossad, seen that they had been tracked, had gone to training camps, one of which was the most "targeted" to be considered dangerous). And there is no doubt after what we know with the N $ A, that information exchanges between secret services are practiced: which would explain in particular, how the Israeli channel i24, published long before France, the names of the suspects : but it remains a hypothesis, I grant you.

Smik. wrote :In short, thank you for confirming to me: "we can always find arguments against or for"

There yes, but not on what I said earlier, which was based on the reporting of facts, only.

Smik. wrote :I give up this thread, I try to [...]

Well don't get lost on the way! :P : Lol: I have no other answer that I gave in your thread, to "save" your battery, sorry!
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by Obamot » 13/01/15, 02:42

To come back to the subject of the thread, here is the front page of the next issue:

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2015/0 ... di_1179193

This coverage is very good and extremely moderate for a "western brain" but perhaps not for others (since it nevertheless continues to be blasphemous ...)

Although I am also "Charlie", will therefore not buy it (which was my original intention) and this out of respect for all Muslims on the one hand, and by the fact that a big manipulation is possible there - behind (and it is true if we consider that the attackers were unmanned by an ideology or whatever ...). We must take a step back.

I base myself on this analysis:
http://www.bluewin.ch/fr/infos/internat ... -char.html

It goes too far in the stigmatization, we are in the immaturity on both sides. But this is only my own opinion and it does not mean that Charlie Hebdo should bend (well that's not the problem, but here it really becomes a case of individual conscience that we bring to the public square with a strong circulation: there is a complete asymmetry between the question of "totally personal" faith, political stakes, mixed with an ethical reflection as well as with deontology - the whole interwoven with security uncertainties and which could endanger the stability of the state (see the case of Marseille already in a lawless zone and totally uncontrollable in part) - things are going a lot TOO QUICKLY and cannot be assimilated so easily by the average citizen or involved ...) ...) ...

I think that the government should not ban publication, let this number go out, but then delay the following ones - without giving the impression of folding - and this while waiting for the collapse of the networks of influence in the field, that is not useful nothing to move the knife in the wound ... There could be new deaths, which would eventually tip the scales on the dark side ....

However, I know very well the speech which would consist in saying:
- we are in France, country of "Freedom of expression" and therefore it is up to others to progress ...;
- an attitude of withdrawal could make one think that fear has won ...;

But we must adopt a pragmatic attitude. There may be objective reasons to respect other cultures, France is also the homeland of human rights ... And other countries count on its benevolent arbitration, if France becomes too involved in the situation inflexible, it greatly complicates his room for maneuver.

As it stands it is an incalculable risk. Badly managed. It won't solve anything ...
It is an affront which constitutes the crucible for new attacks, very high probability (the girl has returned to Syria ...)! Suddenly imagine new attacks!

We must stop reasoning at all costs and exclusively with a Western brain, and think that there are several civilizations on this planet! Take a step towards the other: that would in no way change the principle of "Liberté d'expression"(which in any case is not, and will never be, completely free ...) we must see in the long term, towards what type of society we want to go ... Between possible clash VS peaceful and concerted coexistence: it must choose!
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by pedrodelavega » 13/01/15, 07:12

Obamot wrote:To come back to the subject of the thread, here is the front page of the next issue:
http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2015/0 ... di_1179193
This coverage is very good and extremely moderate for a "western brain" but perhaps not for others (since it nevertheless continues to be blasphemous ...)


"moderate for a western brain" ????
(trial of intent?)
2 weights 2 measures: caricatures of religions (all confused) Vs assassination without name of Jews / journalists / police: Who is moderate?

"Blasphemous"????
What is blasphemy ??? and why this rhetoric?

: Shock: : Shock: : Shock:
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by bamboo » 13/01/15, 09:09

Muslims consider it blasphemous to represent the prophet and, as such, they can / will take it as an additional provocation.

I agree with obamot on this point (yes, if :D ).

No one has anything to gain from this.
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by Christophe » 13/01/15, 11:37

The problem: it's tears ...

Possibly the turban which can make think of 2 large balls ...
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by Did67 » 13/01/15, 14:44

Christophe wrote:
For Did67 and Cuicui:

Note also that the famous quote repeated on social networks and attributed to Voltaire actually comes from the English Evelyn Beatrice Hall.


Ah! Social networks are fallible so ???

[NB: I had spotted her in the parade; it is one of the posters that I had found relevant, without suspecting that it was attributed to Voltaire; and even less than it was wrongly!]
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by Ahmed » 13/01/15, 15:34

There is something a little surreal about invoking "freedom of the press" for these puerile drawings, of which one can, with good reason, wonder whether they should be taken in the second degree or if, on the contrary, they. do not have a third degree, unconscious, defending a dominant system via the stigma of its competitor?
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